Curse

countesscorpula · Jun 09, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Now tell me this, do you think that not having to worry about energy,
...
A necro should have to worry about energy!

This is not what I said.

There is a difference between not having a CONSTANT worry and having "no worries". You must have skimmed over the parts where I pointed out places where necros DO have to worry about energy Pre Nerf. Occassions where investments in SR can serve completely no use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Our opinions differ because our experiences differ, I play an e-sport, and you play an easy and low budget PvE game.

"Join a New Generation of Online Roleplaying" - the bold heading at GWs own description of their product.

"Join the millions of players worldwide who have become enraptured by Guild Wars, the award-winning online roleplaying game—no subscription required." The A-Net description of guild wars.

"Guild Wars is an episodic series of multiplayer online role-playing games " - Wikipedia's opening statement about Guild Wars

"In Guild Wars, you can meet new friends in towns or outposts, form a party, and then go tackle a quest together. Your party has its own unique copy of the quest map, so camping, kill-stealing, and long lines to complete quests are all things of the past. Every quest has an unprecedented amount of freedom and gives you the power to manipulate the world around you." - Product description from online retailer.

Seems when I was investingating the product, they were marketing a ROLE PLAYING GAME, not an "E-Sport". Silly me for expecting this RPG to actually be a RPG. Guess if I want to play your E-Sport I'm going to have to brush off my E-cleats. Or would they give me some kind of unfair advantage- thus skewing the balance and truning the sport back into a game?

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere does it say in my game manual, or on the package that this product is a sport. And if this actually is a "Sport", and that is the direction that A-Net is heading with its real life material/cash prizes for PvP tournaments - I WANT A REFUND!

countesscorpula · Jun 09, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

My Final point....

Adding a timer to something that is random just doesn't make sense.

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 09, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Here's another variation. It took me a whole minute to think up. (I had to go look up how much energy you gained from energy regeneration.) Super hard. Super.

For every 3 points of soul reaping, when a nearby creature or spirit you control dies, you gain +1 energy regeneration for 3 seconds. For each separated rank of soul reaping, you immediately gain 1 energy.

That won't work. Mainly because non-MM Necros won't get any benefit whatsoever from SR. Also, no one would invest any points in SR if you only get 1 pip for 3 seconds every 3 ranks.

Here's a slighly better solution:
For every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping, when a foe or allied creature dies, you gain +1 energy regeneration for [insert half your rank in SR ,rounded down, here] seconds. You can only gain energy this way every 4 seconds.

Sort of complicated but non-MM's benefit and the timer is more reasonable and even understandable. Few builds require more than 8-10 ranks of SR so the pips wouldn't create the degenerate environment that the original SR did.

Silly Warrior · Jun 09, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Soul Reaping seems to be even WORSE since this update, is this the best Anet could come up with?

I could have done better.

explodemyheart · Jun 09, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Warrior

Soul Reaping seems to be even WORSE since this update, is this the best Anet could come up with?

I could have done better.

Did you miss the part where they never actually changed the mechanic in game?

Maybe this goes to prove that the problem really only exists in ones mind?

crimsonfilms · Jun 09, 2007, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTickle

QFT Not a problem in PVE

Because PvE never thinks ANYTHING is overpowered.
Everything in PvE is underpowered.

If Searing Flame does 300 damage per hit - half of PvErs will say thank you and the other half will cry about how their favorite class should also get the boost.

While PvPers go play Fury and WoW.

Give me a break. Those wanting the 'simple' solution:

1. Assume it is easy to implement
2. Wants it because it is NOT a nerf at all. It just nerf on paper. It will allow them to continue to abuse a broken mechanic

ROFL on the dude that compared SR to 55 monk. Brilliant! Compare SR to the one build that had the biggest impact in PvE and economy. ROFL.

The Great Al · Jun 09, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

way i see it is...if the necro class is slightly overpowered in Pve...well, then that's less work that I have to do

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

What does overpowered mean in PvE? Is it "limitless" energy, as long as bodies continue to drop? Is it "god mode": being able to go into many areas solo with the same build and be effectively invincible? Is it the sheer immense amount of damage output by 2-3 characters with the same build? Is it the ability to abuse and, dare I say it, exploit the poor AI of monsters by designating a single character as "tank", or going solo and laying traps to destroy tons of enemies?

Why, out of all those seemingly "overpowered" things, at least to me, is the first one the only one deemed "overpowered"? Honestly, god mode, ridiculously high damage output via minimal effort, and AI abuse seem a hell of a lot more overpowered than constant and supposedly "limitless" energy - especially when that was always the original intended feature.

Plague · Jun 09, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I came up with +1 for 3 seconds for every 3 ranks because that's the exact mathematical equivalent to the old soul reaping of 1 point for every rank. (1 pip of energy regen is exactly 1 point of energy, if it lasts for 3 seconds.) It just works slower. Or that's my understanding of regen. When I play, energy regen seems to work differently than that, especially at higher regens, but I'm just going by what wiki says. Play with it as you will.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Because PvE never thinks ANYTHING is overpowered.
Everything in PvE is underpowered.

If Searing Flame does 300 damage per hit - half of PvErs will say thank you and the other half will cry about how their favorite class should also get the boost.

While PvPers go play Fury and WoW.

Give me a break. Those wanting the 'simple' solution:

1. Assume it is easy to implement
2. Wants it because it is NOT a nerf at all. It just nerf on paper. It will allow them to continue to abuse a broken mechanic

ROFL on the dude that compared SR to 55 monk. Brilliant! Compare SR to the one build that had the biggest impact in PvE and economy. ROFL.

I would think making SR work how it did before but not gaining from spirits and minions would be far simpler to implement than a convoluted timer and a check to see whether you own the spirit or not, ya? and it is most certainly a nerf when you no longer gain back the energy to cast a minion when it dies. you know how often minions die in heavy pve? it would definitely be a huge hit to minion bombers, and to groups that have an MM and another necro, without being needlessly mechanical. and if theres still any JB pvp necros around, its a big hit to them as well.

as far as 55 is concerned... yeah, its the one build that had the biggest impact in PvE. and it hasn't been changed. yet little old soul reaping, that had one or two counterable pvp builds based off of it and just kinda existed in pve, gets a big hoohah nerf and unnatural mechanical limitations imposed on it, while the 55s just keep on doing their thing... I think that may have been part of the point.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

What does overpowered mean in PvE? Is it "limitless" energy, as long as bodies continue to drop? Is it "god mode": being able to go into many areas solo with the same build and be effectively invincible? Is it the sheer immense amount of damage output by 2-3 characters with the same build? Is it the ability to abuse and, dare I say it, exploit the poor AI of monsters by designating a single character as "tank", or going solo and laying traps to destroy tons of enemies?

Why, out of all those seemingly "overpowered" things, at least to me, is the first one the only one deemed "overpowered"? Honestly, god mode, ridiculously high damage output via minimal effort, and AI abuse seem a hell of a lot more overpowered than constant and supposedly "limitless" energy - especially when that was always the original intended feature.

i don't normally do this.... but QFT.

jayce · Jun 09, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Here's another variation. It took me a whole minute to think up. (I had to go look up how much energy you gained from energy regeneration.) Super hard. Super.

For every 3 points of soul reaping, when a nearby creature or spirit you control dies, you gain +1 energy regeneration for 3 seconds. For each separated rank of soul reaping, you immediately gain 1 energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

That won't work. Mainly because non-MM Necros won't get any benefit whatsoever from SR. Also, no one would invest any points in SR if you only get 1 pip for 3 seconds every 3 ranks.

sure they would invest. but i didn't forgot about the MM as you would put it. and while Plague's example is similar to my own, i took into account that most necros would already have normal regen of +4. i've been advocating for the change in my sig for quite some time now, hoping the devs would take it under consideration.

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Soul Reaping
Whenever a creature near you dies, you gain
1...5..6 Energy Regeneration for 3 seconds
(Non-Stackable) and 1...5..6 energy (Stackable).
You gain half that amount/duration for Spirits.

Staff of the Necromancer
Energy +15
Energy Gain: 0.22 per each point in Soul Reaping
Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance 20%)
Energy +5 (while Health is above 50%)
Health +30
Two-Handed

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

sure they would invest. but i didn't forgot about the MM as you would put it. and while Plague's example is similar to my own, i took into account that most necros would already have normal regen of +4. i've been advocating for the change in my sig for quite some time now, hoping the devs would take it under consideration.

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Soul Reaping
Whenever a creature near you dies, you gain
1...5..6 Energy Regeneration for 3 seconds
(Non-Stackable) and 1...5..6 energy (Stackable).
You gain half that amount/duration for Spirits.

Staff of the Necromancer
Energy +15
Energy Gain: 0.22 per each point in Soul Reaping
Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance 20%)
Energy +5 (while Health is above 50%)
Health +30
Two-Handed

I could support that one I guess.... just make it so spirits don't gain at all, to keep the nerf-herding pvp whiners quiet ya?

Thomas.knbk · Jun 09, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

no? what about 55 monks? one permanent enchantment, get hit a few times, and infinite energy. nothing even needs to die for it to happen. thats where the balance comes in with soul reaping, it gives absolutely no benefit until you kill something.

Are you seriously going to argue a build that could clear what was supposed to be the hardest area in the game on its own is not overpowered? Comparing soul reaping to 55 monks doesn't do anything for your point.

Energy Storage is not energy management. If an ele has 16 energy storage, but no energy management skills he is still going to be stuck with 4 pips of regen. Divineshadows compared it to a credit card the other day: it allows you to spend more energy in a short time, provided you're not going to spend a lot in the time after that.
I wouldn't exactly call credit cards 'money management'
Another use of Energy Storage is that it's a buffer for exhausting skills, again like a credit card.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTickle

QFT Not a problem in PVE

That is just stupid. This is a mentality of PVE-ers that keeps coming back, but it's incorrect. You know why no one posted about it in the PvE forums? Because they LIKE overpowered builds. I've never seen ANYONE complain about an overpowered build in PvE, yet they were overpowered and guild wars is a better game without them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

What does overpowered mean in PvE? Is it "limitless" energy, as long as bodies continue to drop? Is it "god mode": being able to go into many areas solo with the same build and be effectively invincible? Is it the sheer immense amount of damage output by 2-3 characters with the same build? Is it the ability to abuse and, dare I say it, exploit the poor AI of monsters by designating a single character as "tank", or going solo and laying traps to destroy tons of enemies?

It was the ability to have a damage output 10 times higher than any other class, in this case, which necro’s were able to do BECAUSE of their limitless energy. This game is about three resources: health (being damage or healing), energy, and time. Health is obviously the most important (if you run out of it you die), but it’s incredibly easy to turn one resource into another. I don't see how such an ability is not overpowered.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Are you seriously going to argue a build that could clear what was supposed to be the hardest area in the game on its own is not overpowered? Comparing soul reaping to 55 monks doesn't do anything for your point.

other than the part where 55 goes on without a hitch while they're so hell bent on changing the soul reaping mechanic... 55 is overpowered, thats the point. compared to several other things, soul reaping is far from overpowered.

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

It was the ability to have a damage output 10 times higher than any other class, in this case, which necro’s were able to do BECAUSE of their limitless energy. This game is about three resources: health (being damage or healing), energy, and time. Health is obviously the most important (if you run out of it you die), but it’s incredibly easy to turn one resource into another. I don't see how such an ability is not overpowered.

Do explain how that is possible. They are still bound by the limit of damage each skill can do, cast times and recharge times. That's all assuming they have "limitless" energy, which they didn't - entirely bound by deaths. Good luck getting the benefit of it when your target is still alive.

Regardless, the examples I gave can clearly and directly abuse PvE, Soul Reaping can do no such thing. Just because you have lots of energy, doesn't mean you can get more damage out of spells, cast them quicker, or make them recharge any faster - nor can you become invincible, abuse the AI with traps and aggro control, or nuke massive amounts of mobs with minimal effort and maximum damage. Sure, you could do those things with a necro, but all without SR - it's not needed, it has no effect whatsoever, and you would be at a severe disadvantage (except 55ing, which is powerful only because of monk skills, not SR).

Please explain, when compared to other obvious PvE abuse, Soul Reaping is so much more devastating and overpowered. Unless you want to argue any of that I listed is or is not abusing and overpowered in PvE. And yes, SR can be compared, since it is being claimed to have been overpowered, while I make the claim that these other methods are much moreso overpowered.

Yichi · Jun 09, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

other than the part where 55 goes on without a hitch while they're so hell bent on changing the soul reaping mechanic... 55 is overpowered, thats the point. compared to several other things, soul reaping is far from overpowered.

I had replied to this when you brought it up in the soul reaping thread and that whole post got deleted eventhough it contained very useful information, so ill repost the part about the 55 monk here.

The 55 monk is a very well known build and has many variations of it, but it not all powerful and unstoppable. There are many counters to this build, the problem is that PVE doesn't include these counters except in a few places. Mesmers, Necros, assassins, even dervishes all have enchant removal skills that will effectively destroy a 55 monk if they ran across one. A good dom mesmer will use one skill (shatter enchantments) and kill a 55 monk in one shot.

The problem with a 55 monk isnt skills, its a combination of game mechanic flaws. The main staple skill of any 55 build is Protective Spirit, which believe it or not, works as its intended too. The problem lies in 2 different forms. These being the -50 icon and the -health stack from similar sup runes which allows you to get your health to this level. The -50 icon even existing is part one of the problem and is the staple of so many 55 builds, wether it be a necro, mesmer, ele, or monk. But the reason it shouldnt exist is a combination of the main problem, and thats the ability of the -health from superior runes of the same attribute to stack. without these two things, youll effictively kill off anything 55. period.

But comparing a character build to a primary attribute is like telling a guy he has an apple, when clearly hes eating an orange. Stop with the 55 monk as it has nothing to do with this update that doesnt even exist. God this is like pulling teeth at times.... The removal of the -50 icon and the -health stack from superior runes of the same attribute is the only way to effectively remove the 55 build from the game. Nerfing Protective Spirit would effectively kill a perfectly valid skill that is working flawlessly.

Lord Mendes · Jun 09, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Do explain how that is possible.

The MM, the walking tank of destruction. Seriously, providing buffers (minions taking up damage) for your entire team while dealing loads of damage (with or without nova bombing), and giving you energy back when they die so you can get them up again is a pretty powerful energy intensive build that required no energy management whatsoever. If you want to take into account the damage and free slots on the mm, as well as the damage to your party negated by minions, it is much better than any other alternative in most guildwars areas.
Reply to countescorpula (sp?) later.

TMWNN · Jun 09, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSGashapon

Energy every 5 seconds is NOT acceptable.
Energy 3 times every 15 seconds is NOT acceptable.
Energy from creatures dying, with no time restriction, but none from spirits and half from your own minions IS acceptable.

Make SR work the way it should work, not the way that PvP'ers want it to work. Are they purposely trying to kill Necromancers?

Theres not a single pvp player out there ha wouldnt prefer your SR change to the one anet has implemented.

We always said either no SR from minions or only from your own minions, don't blame pvp.

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

The MM, the walking tank of destruction. Seriously, providing buffers (minions taking up damage) for your entire team while dealing loads of damage (with or without nova bombing), and giving you energy back when they die so you can get them up again is a pretty powerful energy intensive build that required no energy management whatsoever. If you want to take into account the damage and free slots on the mm, as well as the damage to your party negated by minions, it is much better than any other alternative in most guildwars areas.
Reply to countescorpula (sp?) later.

You have to be joking. MM as high damage output? 10 Bone Fiends, even with support damage spells is nothing compared to a single SF Ele. Most definitely a far cry from Thomas.knbk's "10 times higher than any other class". Although you have one thing right, the MM is probably the best thing the necro has/had going for it, since it supplied not only a battery, but also extra targets to cause a diversion for the foolish AI. But damage? LOL

Yeah, all those times people took nukers instead of MMs for damage... what were they thinking!?